Episode 103
Carl Moore

Our newest Leading Lines producer, Julaine Fowlin, is back with another lively interview. She talks with Carl Moore about his passion for digital transformation in education, fostering culture change on a university campus, and his rather bold vision for the future of educational technology.

Carl Moore is assistant chief academic officer at the University of the District of Columbia, and part time teacher at Temple University, the University of Southern California, and the Online Learning Consortium. He’s also a mentor for the Institute for New Faculty Developers from the POD Network.




Derek Bruff: [0:00] This is leading lines. I’m Derrick Brooks. One of the things we try to do on this podcast is explore the future of educational technology in higher education. Our guest on this episode certainly has a futuristic bend. In fact, as he mentions near the end of the interview, futuristic is one of his strengths. According to the strengths finder assessment. Our guest is Karl Moore, Assistant Chief Academic Officer at the University of the District of Columbia, and part-time teacher at Temple University, the University of Southern California, and the Online Learning Consortium. He’s also a mentor for the Institute for new faculty developers from the POD Network, my professional association. But he’s not just any mentor. He is Julaine Fowlin’s mentor. Yes, our newest leading lines producer join is back with another lively interview. She talks with Carl more about his passion for digital transformation in education, fostering culture change on a university campus, and his rather bold vision for the future of educational technology.

Julaine Fowlin: [1:14] Carl, your bio so extensive that I felt like it would be good for you to tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself that goes beyond what your current title is. Carl Moore: [1:30] Yeah, thank you. And bios is like what are you? This is the time to not the hold back with just a few other things to add is that I’m a graduate faculty at Temple University in their teaching in higher education program. It’s a Graduate Certificate Program. I’m also a graduate faculty and the well, I guess we won’t call, call a graduate faculty, but faculty for University of Southern California is Race and Equity Institute. And then last but not least, the Institute for emerging leaders in online education, which is a program that run through the online learning consortium. I’m also faculty for that. In addition to my, you know, it’s like when I put on the cape at night after hours, I do those other things. But they of course, as you mentioned, assistant chief academic officer. Julaine: [2:19] And you’re into strength finders as well? Carl: [2:21] Yes, certifies transponder coach, certified Myers-Briggs, administrators as they referred to it in the past. And so, I do those things and just love learning and growing and all things digital and teaching and learning. And humanizing. Talk about the inclusion elements, but anything to love it. Humanized education for not only for students with faculty and staff as well. Julaine: [2:49] Awesome, Thank you for that. So, you know, in life, and this is a question that I’ve asked several of the people who were interviewing. And so, I find that everyone has a story around their passions and interests. So, what’s your story around digital transformation and inclusion and equity? Like, how did that become your interests then and how does that make becoming Carl part of a Carl?

Carl: [3:17] That’s actually yeah, I’ve never been this question has never been posted before. Suddenly think so when I was growing up, I was the I was really big into I was the person who would fix the TV with a hanger if it wasn’t working. And so just being, I was really interested in electronics and things of that sort, right? So, there’s like electronics before it was the digital or physical. I never forget when I was young, I was like maybe like four my mother brush used to do and I don’t even notice me. She’s a mil specs for the Army. I don’t know. Long searchers, she brought me home these wires that she’s the kind of like do some wiring and soldering or whatever and whatever her role was. And I just remember being so fascinated by these wires. So that grew into being on a production team. Well, it grew and so like video games, of course Nintendo, I was excited about Nintendo, Gameboy and all that type of stuff. But because those type of things came out of that like an eighties baby. So, when it, when I act actually as I progressed, it became using that technology for entertainment purposes. Like whether it be recording music or what have you to being involved in our, our, our school, our schools. It was the ego’s news team where I wanted to be on our talent, but I was behind the scenes. I couldn’t decide. It was really excited about learning a switchboard, the audio to control everything like that, the monitor that all of which you can really just doing a phone now that we were doing these larger studios and whatnot. So, my undergraduate degree is in electronic media, which is literally it was telecommunications electronics. More so for production of video, audio, things of that sort. But you learn a lot about batteries. I knew about understood how to keep batteries longer. You know, it was the very applicable part versus the, it wasn’t as much science-based, but more so how you can use the electrical tools to actually do things with and produce. When I was with the early days of online teaching. When I was in grad school at Ohio State, I actually started to teach online because I wasn’t afraid of it. I was excited about, always been excited about technology. And then the rest is history with a bunch of other things. So, I think it starts with being a child and then being excited about it, but then being more of an early adopter. And like, hey, let me run through this, let me run through that. And there has been some interesting changes over the years, like moving from what do we use Web CT and not whoops, I forgot when, but classroom. From what we could do with that to what can be done with like a Canvas or Blackboard now, so the, where I’m at now is a natural progression is like moving deep into the technology to being more neutral agnostic of digital means. I’m really about strategy and outcomes that we want to promote or whatever in and leveraging the tools to actually meet those outcomes. And even the mode to actually help us achieve objectives. So as, as became a heavy deep dive wireless technologies to say the goal is to use the technology is how to use technology. Now, wouldn’t even mentioned that technology. It’s like air, you know, where it’s at, what are we trying to do? And how can we leverage all of our resources, whether it be tech or non-text? So hopefully gives you a holistic picture of how I started off as a youngster and professionally in terms of digital education, et cetera.

Julaine: [6:48] It does and you’re thinking kind of mirror as the instructional design mindset where we always talk about technological affordances. So it’s pretty much the outcomes that we’re trying to accomplish. And I like the fact that you’re talking about leveraging the technology, but I just wanted to talk a little bit more because you’ve shared with us about the technology. But how did you become interested in technology as a tool for diversity, inclusion, and equity? How did that piece of it come about? Carl: [7:16] Yeah, I’ve been doing a lot more concentrated work on it as of late. First, it was my dissertation. I used a Universal Design for Learning like a frame to help folks understand neuro diversity in its broadest sense. And this is before the whole idea of neurodiversity was as popular. But when I was doing that, I wanted folks to recognize in order to understand how to enhance learning environments for those students that are marginalized, we have to both, we have to first understand how all students are impacted in the neuro pathways and the ways in which we, our brains wire and fire differently is a very common frame across. And everyone needed to listen, right? So because it’s about your brain’s parties different ways. And then I was using that as a foil to really help folks engage them into deeper is like an okay. Now we’re dealing with individuals that are marginalized, whether it be by systems, traditions, social, cultural rules, economics, et cetera, or diffusion or blend of those. Now we can see that, okay, neurodiversity were already different as a fingerprint. Now this student has that additional tax, right? So that kind of now when it comes to technology, I started to really weave in how like for example, somebody like myself in order to edit a paper. Because the way my brain is wired, I actually, what I kept hearing it. I can catch more than just reading it. So then it became o. I was using Siri before. I had to activate the accessibility feature on my iPhone back. And like when he first came out and I was doing it just kind of and I was using Talk, the texts. So those because of my own personal, own personal kind of like ways of being trying to achieve whatever outcomes are trying to be productive or successful. Merged into or blossomed into me really understanding like wow, you know what? This technology, it can intentionally be a bionic arm for all learners and not just the assistive technology that I’ve actually promoted for like, hey, we he uses assistive technology whether you’re documented or not. But now it’s independent of it being assistive technology or user-driven or, or what have you. It’s understanding how technology can be our bionic arm to help not only those neural diverse learners puts actually serve as a more culturally inviting or nuanced mechanisms for even some other learners who just reading it on paper may not be what they’re used to from their background or how they were raised and maybe that they need to see something more dynamic and engaging. So, I’ll stop there. There’s, there’s, there’s a lot there, but that’s kind of the impetus. So, I used to say the bionic arm, you know, of. It could be our bionic arm for us to lift a lot more than we would’ve been able to live otherwise, cognitively, or even social emotionally. What’s up like VR, et cetera. Julaine: [10:18] I like that metaphor in a bionic arm. So, you talk about digital transformation all the times in education or any other fats that we use terminologies. And we assume that other people have the same understanding. And so whenever I’m talking to, I guess I always like to get what their definition is that as we talk about digital transformation, it’s so broad. What exactly are we talking about and what does it mean to you?

Carl: [10:47] Yes. Interesting. Believe it or not, there are some, there are some very powerful and folks that have been in the game so to speak, or in the industry talking about this for decades. And they said no, there is no consensus in some ways, but you’ll have to go with whatever is the most cited sources on these. But as far as digital first, I’ll start with digital education than digital transformation. So, digital education is leveraging an ascent because most simple way digital means to promote outcomes, student learning outcomes at that, right? So digital means could be anything from your computer and actual device. A lot of times the online and digital education or are seen as synonymous. But digital means can actually, you know, mean literally sending a number of different, you know, you have correspondence courses way back in the day we send a packet. You could send like bunch of iPads out to folks, have them complete and then have them send them back. There are number of different ways that it will be digital, but the one line is usually kind of partnered with that. Now digital transformation, in my opinion, just as in my humble opinion, is the end that okay, another thing about education. It means that the mode, whether it’s, you’re going to be online face-to-face hybrid. You also have high flex and high flex as another hybrid kind of, but it’s just referred to as teaching folks that are in front of you while also synchronously, while also being able to bring in folks from, or learners from all over the world or wherever I’m through digital means. So that mode is a really important element in the asynchronous and synchronous, whether it’s like real-time or happening, kind of in a flipped classroom where happening and not real time, but in people’s own time or other key features. Usually have some left 2 tools. You’ll usually also have a web conferencing platform like we’re using Zoom, that now digital transformation is, and I love this. There’s a model to SAMR model is simpler model with digital transformation. I think that model helps, even though this term predates that model. It’s really doing what you are doing new things with digital by digital means, not just literally, Hey, I used to teach face-to-face and speak to students. And now I am going to speak to them on the computer, but it’s like, okay, now that I have this computer, what can I do to advance outcomes and learn and teach in ways that, so that, so advancing learning, advancing business outcomes as well, remote work. There are a number of things that we, so digital transformation is enhancing the way we do everything. Leveraging this bionic arm, as I mentioned before, being able to lift more professionally or academically, or what have you.

Julaine: [13:40] Thank you so much. In a previous interview with uni Safari, I will accessibility she did mention on this model. And so, we’ll provide some more information on that to our listener is I’ve just seen digital transformation as a continuum from, in some cases, you’re just replacing what do you do to, in other cases, by leveraging the technology you are re-imagining they never thought could happen before. And so, you practically wear two hats because you are an administrator and you’re also a faculty member. So, you constantly move from what I call the balcony to the dance floor are high level exit chlorides level. And so, as you think about digital transformation, what do you see your vision for higher ed to be? And how do you pass that on to faculties that manifests itself at the course level. Carl: [14:38] Yeah, I think for digital transformation for me. But I have a colleague I spoke on his version, so I want to make sure that I don’t blend too, our new CEO, CIO. But if any case he’s getting credit for some of this, even give it a format. So for me, it, it really is a matter of creating an ecosystem. Yeah, and this is Carl stuff here, Okay? It’s creating an ecosystem by which we understand how everything works together, right? It’s like if you were out in nature, you have the sunlight, you had the vegetation and then you have the frogs that a little bit and everything kind of works together, right? So, for, for me, digital transformation is understanding where, how the digital means that helps this ecosystem run more effectively, fluidly without as much if any interruptions. And for me, that includes a few key features on one of those is that there has to be this level of employee professional development. And by that, I mean faculty and staff. So that there’s a digital literacy that’s promoted. Now it’s not because a lot of times to say, we’ll do this because it will help the students, right? And this is great. I’m all about helping students, but it’s like we have to put an oxygen mask on first as it relates to really being able to have, be, there’ll be an acculturation or a culture of digital learning so that the student, when students learning from or participating in whatever service. This culture, their behaviors, and practices in this way of leveraging digital means, that becomes a part of the culture because that’s going to impact the sales experience. So that’s one key essential element. I think you also have to have like a certain amount of intentionality ongoing of like iterating on research and development. And that could be partnering with like groups or entities like Apple or Microsoft or what have you. And so that there is this intentional way in which your institution is and fusing that it’s an ecosystem for your learners to be able to leave that ecosystem and know how to exist and other ones. But then also said that you are able to be able to have some inquiry and iterate on what it means. You also have the students support or student life element. When it comes to the digital transformation, where it’s supporting their entire in and outside of the classroom from advising an app or a campus LiveSafe app. Like we have where it’s like, okay, there’s an alert, there’s a fire in a building or this side of campus has had this going on or no school today because there is we’re doing emergency remote because there’s a snow a snow storm. And those are just a few pieces that meant there are some other things. I may not be touching one, but I think it really is like really lit, literally operationalizing a way that all of that can happen for students, faculty, staff, research and development. So that we can not, so when it at, as it relates to faculty and faculty development or educational development. One of the things that we, one of our chairs here does in I worked with this person and make sure it has happened before hiring practices, right. When you’re hiring folks giving a blackboard, I call them a supplemental task that you’re hiring folks, making sure there’s like okay, part of your interview processes to do this, create this module, or what have you or show your ability. And not as a kind of a a way of weeding folks out, but as a way of assessing, I can eat a pre-assessment their skills and then having training, of course, right? So you can hire to same faculty member, but you can make sure that there is this. As a part of our new faculty academy. I have all of our faculty members participate in our online teaching certification, which is only required for students for faculty members that are at UDC who are teaching online, it’s only required for them or emergency remote. But it’s a feature that now every faculty member who comes in as a new faculty member, whether the plants who are not, has that prerequisite or been exposed prerequisite knowledge so that they can be more agile. Because we will move from digital literacy to like digital fluency, where it’s a fluency. And then when you’re fluent, you can speak and go get a cup of coffee in another country. If you’re literate, you just have to read and use your app, which digital can help with that as well. But the hope that answers your question. Julaine: [19:08] It does, you’ve just mentioned on a whole lot there, you probably know them as the same thinker. And so you have the right to the ecosystem that resonates with me a lot because a lot of times in education when there is what I call a buzz. So, because of the pandemic, we were hitting online learning. So maybe people are thinking about digital transformation on there. Just focus on the mood, like you said before. But if we adopt a digital transformation mindsets and like you said, see the technology, I’m going to be using your phrase all the time as the Haiyan in arm and just allowing us to. And what I like about what you said is using that same continuum that is eminent in this essay, SAMR model where you’re taking people from you say digital literacy, whereas that understanding to that fluency where they are used anytime to that comfort, comfortable level. And that’s amazing that he founded. Effective too, exposed, both online teachers than non online teachers to base because you’re seen that that will give them some competency that goes beyond direct mode of online learning. I really love that, So that’s amazing. So just to get a little bit specific and give our listeners some examples, what are some of your especial approaches as you’re using digital technology for transformation. Could you give us some specific examples of how you’ve done that yet?

Carl: [20:36] Well, the first thing is, you know, and I appreciate your reflection there because I live with everything you’re saying it. What it becomes digital disruption. It becomes an opportunity to, to learn deeper. So, one example is when we, it used to be a we have a wouldn’t call it an Online Building Certification, right? Where faculty members will learn how to build courses online. Anyone know how to leverage web 2 tools and the LMS to do that. And because of the quality assurance orientation that many of us have when we’re building online courses. It, it’s kind of like walking into a building. And with traditional class, if you walk into a building and the structure is already there, so you just walk up to the white border or the, the, the, you know, the smart, you know. Device and turn it on and then start teaching, right? It needs to be you walk with his chocolate, you pick the chocolate. But because of online, you have to build so much. So, you literally have to build the space to code, right? And then teach. So, it’s kind of like if we want to in a physical environment, we have to literally build and put the steel beams into place and everything and go in and paint the walls. The quality that we, we take things for granted in our physical environment. Like we don’t take a lot of things for granted. And what I’ve noticed about how that’s really helped is that now when we do anything, because online as a part of it is becomes an opportunity for quality assurance in our course design institute. Now, across modes, It’s a comedy. Learn how to build a learning experience that whereas outcomes focused, leveraging activities, leveraging assessments, and then what mode are you doing? What tools are you doing center versus okay. Face-to-face. We just take things for granted online. We do that. So that’s one in the classroom than the other. I created. There was we had a Microsoft Innovative Educator leadership and a Microsoft Innovative Educator Firebird academies, where these are. And cabinet, the cabinet members, leaders who actually learn how to use Microsoft applications for productivity. Alongside faculty members, the Innovative Educators, learning how to use those same tools for the classroom. And then conversations between those groups, right? To be able to see how these are just tools, very neutral, but you can use those same tools to enhance business outcomes, the learning outcomes to be effective or whatever. So those are some, that’s another example of how been able to use this understanding of digital transformation or not, or this kind of culture that promoting, to promote, you know, better does and I guess a higher quality or more, more fidelity to design. And then also just encourage actually productivity and effectiveness. Julaine: [23:31] I like the example that you gave and off the after the podcasts, we can share some things about that project if there’s anything available or just link them to the idea of the Microsoft innovators? Carl: [23:43] Yes.

Julaine: [23:44] The provider, our listeners with some contexts there. Any specific technologies that you found most useful for detailed transformation? I know we’ve spoken a lot about learning a lot of the management systems and a lot of our digital transformation. Lot largely being about mindsets and just that way of being and thinking. But have you found any specific technologies like to be super good or that you’ve used a lot as you do your digital transformation? Carl: [24:15] Yeah. This is interesting so well, in this dovetails that last question as well. So, I’m also in conversations with, with Apple and this is, I guess I can say butchers. But there is someone. I’ll go with the device and then I’ll go with like an application. One device that I find to be very powerful is like the iPad, because it can be used as like a third device. No matter whether you’re Apple campus, you’re a Microsoft where campuses or sometimes they have like a and I don’t, I don’t align with this. I think everyone should be more neutral so that we can increase our muscles. But the power of what a learner can do with an iPad and your hand. Everything from Word processing to your recording video, et cetera. It’s just very powerful device that I really love as a supplement from augmented reality to a Mixed Reality to, there are a number of ways in which that can really compliment whatever is being taught or just serve as a tool for notetaking, audio recording. A lot of the accessibility elements in terms of how they’re made. We actually have a and our Dean of Workforce Development is leading us, actually wears an apple Ambassador program to have faculty member learn that in the sensor are CTL, which reports to me is has a professional learning community with Apple Talk where we come together monthly. People who are enthusiasts like myself, who they’re like because I use my iPhone for everything. They’re like, oh, let’s get you in here to talk about how you scan on that. It’s in facts and Zack, I spent a whole workday in a pandemic, made it worse. Ac has been a whole workday and literally be very effective just on my phone. So that’s, so those are, those are, but as far as at applications of Web 2 tools like I really do love the power of YouTube. I’m not sure there’s a link that I can send you, but there’s so much learning that can happen on there. I love LinkedIn Learning. LinkedIn learning is huge in terms of just really enhancing any one’s competency and Y range you. It helps you learn how to learn. It’s like if you think about it’s a referred to as the T pack model. The technology, the content and pedagogical knowledge is kind of like we have to learn how to learn and how are we going to do that. And sometimes you don’t have these well-crafted, self-guided experiences like they haven’t. LinkedIn Learning, which used to be lynda.com. I love Evernote myself for productivity. I’m a huge fan of using audio recordings. And then being like being able to play that back. You know, it’s Siri on here. Talk the texts, speak text. So that gives you like from the broader to a very specific kind of technologies that I use to enhance whatever I’m doing. Awesome. Julaine: [27:02] Thank you so much. For our faculty member who’s probably just focusing on their specific course level. Do you have any examples of how you’ve used any of these other devices or applications?

Carl: [27:17] Yeah. Of course, I would students. Yeah. One teaching and learning specific device is that really is, I haven’t really seen it used in business as much as I love VoiceThread as a, as a great tool just because of the way in which you’re able to literally facilitate individual’s learning around or towards whatever outcome, or facilitate creation of content or learning about content. And multi-modal way, right? Allows you audio. Yeah, it can be a text, it can be a recording and it can be an image. So anybody can do any kind of means of communicating, like a professor, that one nugget of information and the learners can participate. And whatever means that they is most comfortable for them, you know, as a response. So if you put up an audio, a learner can respond with the video, already, can respond with the text, or you can respond with the picture. And then it can be any kind of combination. So I really think that that’s a really great tool. Another tool that actually goes really helpful. Because we send a lot of videos for our learners. And if we just had them watch your videos, it’s the same as a lecture with nothing wrong with lecture, but how do we encourage that active learning? So something like at puzzle, I really love Edpuzzle because you can like embed the questions instead of video. And then good old-fashioned Google Forms, right? Or whatever form, so you could say, okay, watch this video and fill out this form right here, so that we encourage this type of interactive learning at the same time. Julaine: [28:44] Thank you so much. I will put links to some of these. Carl: [28:48] Yeah. Definitely. Julaine: [28:51] Resources. I’m not sure a VoiceThread is free. Carl: [28:54] No, but there is a free account. But you know how it is a free account, so you get a little bit of that? Julaine: [28:59] Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. And so as we get to wrap up our time together, what do you think is next for digital transformation on college campuses? Carl: [29:09] Yeah. I love this question because I consider myself a future. It’s much finer, strategic, futuristic. Or two of my top signature themes. By that model. What I think is next, maybe a little bit of what I think should be next. It’s on as being neutral. That’s what I think is next. You have, right now, we’ve had this for decades now. Where what is it that we really want learners to learn that are aligned with workforce credentials? That it’s a little bit more, there’s a lot more iterative and a little bit more natural to which we know that in real time right there. That’s that information is more readily available through very fluid assessment and data collection mechanisms that we are, we have right now. And that credentials become more about what can, how can I use this? And it could be using it for enhanced intellectual thought or ability for graduate professional school doesn’t have to be. But how can I use this towards particular functions on and whatever area? So I think that in then the mode, right, maybe that you could have a learner that’s a part of going to university or whatever. And that learner has, does something on their phone, somethin stuff, does some things on a computer and that something’s face-to-face with a cohort of other learners in the area to actually get that applicable experience. Whereas right now, it’s a little disjointed. It’s like you’re in this program and we may have a residency, right. Or you’re in this program or you online or you’re face-to-face. And i’ll, I’ll say to you that the future of education is what’s happening with this right now, you and I, as we go about our day, we say, okay, I want to talk to somebody, I make a call, rape or I want to text, and then we go and get on our computer and we go watch a TV or we go walking. We don’t say, I am now making a call. It’s just a part of the fluidity will be there. But fluidity towards helping us with more advanced outcomes from your adaptive learning that can work on the muscles in a formative way. I’d be summative way to more summative mechanisms, whether it be using that lockdown browser or using an actual live experience that can be recorded. So I literally, I can literally map out a way that we can do this right now. But those are just odd ideas for the future, which it just involves the right ecosystem in order for it to happen with less friction. So, so that’s what I think for the future, it’s actually now, right now as well.

Julaine: [31:42] So, I’m going to play devil’s advocate because there are two there are two voices in my head. Carl: [31:47] Yeah, go ahead. Julaine: [31:49] There is because one voice that came from a Twitter thread that I thought was really good that talking about the future doesn’t mean that you have all the answers. And it doesn’t mean that you’re going to fix things right away because a lot of times when people know that a system needs to change. So, like for you, you’re moving towards a future where a system is more fit, we are fluid but we’re not fully Floyd. And so, there’s one aspect of the, oh, you want the system to be fluid? We got to get they are like what, what’s the solution? And then there’s the other one that like, well, the traditional system took a while and it’s been around for a while. So, no one person has all these answers, then it’s going to take a while. So, the midground is, how do you think we’ll get more fluid with all these barriers? Like you need resources, change of mind and behavior is like, how are we going to get there? Carl: [32:44] Well, I’m so happy you use the word system because that’s really important. I think that at least in my mind because I don’t know this is that there are many different answers and packs, right? One potential route is to not even view it as a system anymore, but as an organism, right? So that’s why I use, and even a word ecosystem is a bit of an oxymoron because it’s a, it’s a living thing. So, it could be like eco thing, right? Versus system. So, for me, as an organism, if you view organizations as organisms or systems, an organism is where there are certain elements that come more into play at certain times and I kind of learns from each other and organic fashion. So, and it goes to your point because we can’t have all the answers. But I think we can set of conditions in place where we are curious enough, agile enough, learning enough, and had like certain tenants, so what we can continue to grow. So, but I totally agree about not having to answer. And I think that more of like an organism education as an organism where you can really use and like your body. Your body has to say I’m, you know, I’m, I’m sleeping now and it’s like there’s everything is still running. But there are certain times that certain features are used a little bit more. And we have that happening in some ways. But the system’s piece gets a way because as you were mentioning, having to have the answers and then if you rely on a system, some parts are more important than others. Whereas in, in, in, a more of a organism, every part, it is important, it has value. So, I’m just maybe bigger than others, right? As it relates to just our body like our heart is very, very important, but my, my pinky is important as well, right? So about by functionality will be limited if I lost my pinky, but I can still function. So there are ways of understanding our organizations as, as organisms in a way where it really is honest about the value of value, but that everything has value and, you know, it’s a really wonderful world out there. Very, a lot of people like you I know are going to be creating the, not the answers, but the opening the doors for us to get to that next step when a journey. So very excited about that. Julaine: [34:55] Thank you so much. Several things I just run through my mind like Wiggins iMac tie that they talk about like you are not been fully guaranteed the outcome. But by some words that you’ve been using a lot by being intentional, by design. And I like the idea we’re talking about creating those conditions. I feel like you’ve given us a charge, Dr. more Herzog. Let’s think about what are those conditions then something that I like to think about which you mentioned when we were at pod. It’s kind of focusing on your spare of influenza. The system is always had this vision of like a red circle, which is the theme that you need to be aware of. But the yellow is that your zone of influence and then the green is like your zone. I think probably what you are in control. And be like This conversation has really carried us like on an administrative level, if you’re a faculty developer, how do you build those conditions? But even on the ground, if you are a faculty member who’s teaching, what are those conditions but digital transformation for yourself and then also for your students. So I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation for today. Thank you so much for spending your time and just giving us so much to think about at the macro and micro levels as we think about digital transformation. And he has been a joy. Do you have any final words for our listeners as we wrap up?

Carl: [36:17] Yeah, I would say I appreciate you and the work that you’re doing, your I highly value all your work that you have done, you’re doing and you will do. And the final words for everyone as, you know, as the day did this before, as we move to digital transformation, everything being a human becomes that much more important. And all the competencies and everything that come with that. So obviously with that, don’t, don’t leave the human behind and making sure that we can, because that’s going to be the value added for us and for our learners who can be that much more of a person was in touch with them. They’re there themselves as a human, so just sending loving lights, everyone out there, all your fellow humans. I think that’s all people who are going to listen to this, right? Julaine: [37:00] We may have some robots. Carl: [37:03] Maybe some robots. Synchronicity is there, isn’t there. Julaine: [37:07] Thank you so much. It has been a pleasure. Carl: [37:10] Alright, likewise.

Derek: [37:15] That was Karl Moore, Assistant Chief Academic Officer at the University of the District of Columbia. Thanks to Karl for taking some time to talk with us. And thanks to Julaine for another great interview. I have to say I was a little surprised by Carl’s answer to the question about what’s next for educational technology. That mode neutral world he described sounds a lot like the HyFlex model of blended learning where students can at will shift between in-person, online and asynchronous learning. It’s a beautiful vision for a fluid learning environment, but as many instructors found out during the pandemic, it’s pretty hard to pull off. But of course, pulling off anything. It’s challenging as HyFlex during a pandemic seems a tall order. Over the next decade, could institutions of higher education move in that direction? Carl’s approach thinking of an institution as a complex organism that can adapt and respond to new problems, seems a necessary condition. I’m reminded of Randy basses 2012 article, disrupting ourselves. The problem of learning in higher education, where he advocated for team-based design of courses and curricula that would involve done only instructors, but also instructional designers and librarians. And providers have student services like reading studios. It’s a systems approach that would be needed to pull off something as ambitious as a mode neutral higher education. I’ll put a link to that Randy Bass article in the show notes, as well as links to more information about Karl Moore and his work. Thanks again to Karl for coming on the podcast and thanks as always to Julian for her great interviews. Leading lines is produced by the Vanderbilt Center for Teaching and the gene and Alexander heard libraries. You can find us on Twitter at leading lines pod and on the web at leading lines Pod.com. This episode was edited by Red McDaniel. Look for new episodes the first, third Monday of each month. I’m your host, Derek. Thanks for listening.


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